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# THIRD MEETING.
March 3rd, 1893
Present:--Mr. E. J. ACKROYD, Chairman.
Mr. J. THURBURN.
Mr. S. G. BIRD.
Mr. F. J. BADELET, Secretary.
Mr. F. H. May called.
The Chairman. We are enquiring into the defalcations in the Treasury, Mr. May, and as you were Acting Treasurer for some months last year we would like to have some information from you. When did you take charge?
Witness. On March 31st, I think.
Q. And you were acting until?
A. The first week in October, the 7th I think.
Q. When you took charge, did you look into the working of the Office at all to see what system was carried out?
A. Yes.
Q. About Crown Rents, what did you find was the system pursued?
A. I found that all the money paid into the Treasury was paid into the hands of the shroff, and that the man in charge of the collection of Crown Rent on being informed by the shroff that such a sum had been paid, made out a receipt for the amount, which receipt was handed back to the shroff and upon the shroff affixing his seal to it it was handed to the man who brought the money.
Q. And the receipt was signed by?
A. By the man in charge of the Rent Roll.
Q. Who was in charge of the Rent Roll?
A. Alves.
Q. Did you never think whether there were any precautions against Alves receiving money and not accounting for it?
A. No, I never was aware of Alves receiving money direct.
Mr. Thurburn. Was there any regulation against his receiving money or was there any order that the shroff was the only man to receive money?
A. I could not exactly say whether there was any regulation, but it was certainly the practice of the Office that only the cashier might handle money, or the shroff, but nobody else.
The Chairman. The practice has been that Alves has handled money, and to a very large extent.
A. In my own case I have often received money sent to me in a letter, as Treasurer. I have always sent it direct to the shroff.
Q. Was your attention ever called to the fact that Alves signed receipts?
A. No.
Q. At one time all the receipts had been signed by Mr. Carvalho, but afterwards that system was altered by an order of Mr. Lister and Alves signed receipts. Was your attention ever called to that?
A. No.
Q. Was any complaint made to you by Mr. Nicolle that the Rent Roll had not been balanced?
A. Yes, on two occasions.
Q. Could you give us about the date?
A. I think not long after I took charge, and again I should say about August, as far as I can remember.
Q. What did you do when Mr. Nicolle first complained?
A. I spoke to Alves about it. He was very busy and had a great deal to do and he showed me his Rent Roll Book and he was going on with it. He appeared to be working at it every day and I regarded it as an arrear which would soon be wiped off.
Q. You say he spoke to you again in August. What did you do then?
A. I took similar action. I simply urged Alves to get on with it as quick as he could.
Q. Was that the Rent Roll for 1890 or 1891?
A. It was for 1891.
Mr. Thurburn. Did Mr. Nicolle point out that it was one of the necessary checks having that book balanced?
A. No, I remember his words were to the effect that "I wish you would hurry up Alves with his Rent Roll, he has not closed his book yet."
Q. He did not point out that it was one of the checks?
A. Not that I am aware of.
The Chairman. Do you remember what he said on the second occasion that he complained?
A. As far as I remember his remarks were to a similar effect.
Q. And the book was not balanced when you left the Treasury?
A. No.
Mr. Thurburn. Did you ask whether it had been the habit to balance the book before you went to the Treasury?
A. When I urged Alves on and spoke to him about it he said that he never could get it balanced until about the end of the year. He said that was his excuse to me, he had always so much work to do that he never got it balanced until the latter half of the year.
Q. Do you know that there are two years 1888 and 1889 missing; are you aware whether either of those years were balanced?
A. No, I did not make enquiries into a year prior to 1891.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear any complaints of Alves?
A. No, I always heard him spoken of both by the Treasurer and Mr. Nicolle as the best man in the Office and the hardest worker, and the most obliging.
626
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THIRD MEETING.
March 3rd, 1893
Present:--Mr. E. J. ACKROYD, Chairman.
Mr. J. TOURBURN.
Mr. S. G. BIRD.
Mr. F. J. BADELET, Secretary,
Mr. F. H. May called.
The Chairman.We are enquiring into the defalcations in the Treasury, Mr. May, and as you were Acting Treasurer for some months last year we would like to have some information from you. When did you take charge?
Witness.-On March 31st, I think.
Q.-And you were acting until ?
A.--The first week in October, the 7th I think.
you
Q.--When you took charge, did look into the working of the Office at all to see what system was carried out?
A.-Yes.
Q.--About Crown Rents, what did you find was the system pursued ?
A.--I found that all the money paid into the Treasury was paid into the hands of the shroff, and that the man in charge of the collection of Crown Reut on being informed by the shroff that such a sum had been paid, made out a receipt for the amount, which receipt was handed back to the shroff and upon the shroff affixing his seal to it it was handed to the man who brought the money,
Q.---And the receipt was signed by ?
A.--
By the man in charge of the Rent Roll. Q.--Who was in charge of the Rent Roll?
A.--Alves.
Q.--Did
you never think whether there were any precautions against Alves receiv- ing money and not accounting for it ?
A.--No, I never was aware of Alves receiving money direct.
Mr. Thurburn.-Was there any regulation against his receiving money or was there
any order that the shroff was the only man to receive money?
A.-I could not exactly say whether there was any regulation, but it was certainly the practice of the Office that only the cashier might handle money, or the shroff, but nobody else.
The Chairman.-The practice has been that Alves has handled money, and to a very large extent,
A.--In my own case I have often received money sent to me in a letter, as Treasurer. I have always sent it direct to the shroff,
Q-Was your attention ever called to the fact that Alves signed receipts?
A.-No.
Q.-At one time all the receipts had been signed by Mr. Carvalho, but afterwards that system was altered by an order of Mr. Lister and Alves signed receipts. Was your attention ever called to that?
A.--No.
Q.--Was any complaint made to you by Mr. Nicolle that the Rent Roll had not heen balanced?
-- Yes, on two occasions,
A.--
Q-Could you give us about the date?
A.---I think not long after I took charge, and again I should say about. August, as far as I can remember,
Q. What did do when Mr. Nicolle first complained?
you
A.--I spoke to Alves about it. He was very busy and had a great deal to do and
he showed me his Rent Roll Book and he was going on with it. He appeared to he working at it every day and I regarded it as an arrear which would soon be wiped off.
Q-You say he spoke to you again in August. What did you do then? A.-I took similar action. I simply urged Alves to get on with it as quick
could.
Q.--Was that the Rent Roll for 1890 or 18917
A.-It was for 1891.
as he
Mr. Thurburn. Did Mr. Nicolle point out that it was one of the necessary checks having that book balanced ?
A.-No, I remember his words were to the effect that "I wish you would hurry up Alves with his Rent Roll, he has not closed his book yet." Q.--He did not point out that it was one of the checks? A.-Not that I am aware of.
The Chairman. Do you remember what he said ou the second occasion that he complained?
As far as I remember his remarks were to a similar effect.
left the Treasury? you Q.--And the book was not balanced when
A.--No.
before
Mr. Thurburn. Did you ask whether it had been the habit to balance the book
you
went to the Treasury?
A.--When I urged Alves on and spoke to him about it he said that he never could He said That was his excuse to me. get it balanced until about the end of the year. he had always so much work to do that he never got it balanced until the latter half of the year.
Q.-Do you
know that there are two years 1888 and 1889 missing; are you aware whether either of those years were balanced?
A.--No, I did not make enquiries into a year prior to 1891.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear any complaints of Alves?
A.--No, I always heard him spoken of both by the Treasurer and Mr. Nicolle as the best man in the Office and the hardest worker, and the most obliging.
626
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